In season 2 of Like Us, Anna Yeon, Noè Harsel and Zione Walker-Nthenda are each inviting friends to the table for a chat about the important things in life. Then they share the interviews with each-other and regroup to unpack.
In this episode, Zione sits down with lawyer and human rights advocate Nyadol Nyuon OAM, currently the Director of the Sir Zelman Cowen Centre at Victoria University.
Nyadol was born in a refugee camp in Ethiopia and grew up in another refugee camp in Kenya. She came to Australia as a 17-year-old and quickly set about chasing her dream of becoming a lawyer. After graduating she worked as a commercial litigator, and is a regular media commentator - appearing on The Drum and Q&A. She was awarded an Order of Australia Medal in 2022 in recognition of her service to human rights and refugee women.
Like many black women, we grow up with this idea of a strong black woman, and it's an identity that becomes almost the core identity. And I think it's an identity that is forged out of survival.Nyadol Nyuon
Nyadol chats with Zione about becoming an advocate in response to negative media coverage of her community, navigating expectations, and the professional and personal cost of that work.
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Transcript
We would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are broadcasting from, the Boonwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, we pay our respects to their Elders past and present. We would also like to acknowledge all Traditional Owners from all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander lands you are listening from.
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Like Us is Anna Yeon, Zione Walker-Nthenda and me Noè Harsel: a Japanese Jewish woman, a Korean woman and a Nigerian-Malawian woman chatting about our relationship with Australia and Australia’s relationship with us.
Noè Hey, guys, another fabulous day here in recording land.
Zione I know, I know. It's always exciting when we have new people.
Noè It's super exciting because of all the things that we're doing.
Anna But I have been holding my breath [for] this particular conversation, Zione. I'm super impressed - you have friends in all the right places! Tell us about this conversation because it's your interview.
Zione Yeah, that's fantastic. So I interviewed Nyadol Nyuon, who is currently the Director for Sir Zelman Cowen Centre, part of Victoria University. Amazing woman. She's been a lawyer for maybe 10 years, maybe more. And she's been a community leader. She's worked as a commercial litigator. She's done so so much. I mean, if you are in Australia, you would have seen her on TV.
Anna She's known as an icon!
Zione And yeah, popular. A Commentator, [from the] African Australian community. Yeah. She's amazing. And she's actually really young. She's in her 30s. She's young to us!
Noè Yeah, she's a bit of a goddess.
Zione Yeah, exactly. [She] writes for newspapers, you know, all of that. All of the things.
Noè All the things. A pretty impressive person. Well done. I mean, woah.
Zione Yeah, very thrilled, thrilled that she chose to be on our podcast. You know, she's received awards, 100 most influential women, an OAM, which is the Order of Australia, you know, those sorts of things that you just pick along the way for some people. So I'm really, really looking forward to what you think after you've listened to the interview,
Noè I'm so looking forward to this. Cannot wait. Shpilkes as we say.
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Zione Hello Nyadol, it's so exciting to have you here. You're a woman of the world who's lived across continents, navigated cultures, different work spaces, different positions of authority. I'm really, really interested to hear your context and your experience in terms of how you've danced across all of these different worlds that you found yourself in.
Nyadol Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I enjoy those really cool introductions. I've never even thought of myself in that way. But I think, like, it captures that idea of dancing between cultures and identities and places and belonging and acceptance. Like, it's, it's sort of been my journey from the beginning. And I was born in a refugee camp from a different country where my parents came from. And then I grew up in another country different from where I was born in Kenya, and then I came to Australia as a 17 year old, which I think is a really interesting age to be able to come to another country.
You're not, you're not young, you're not born there. So you, you do come with an identity that is somewhat formed already, and then informed by your process of being in the new country. So it does feel that I have had to sort of dance between cultures and senses of belonging and identity, since the beginning, and I think as you get older as well, and you get into the professional life, then you've got that balance as well.
And it's been I don't know, I mean, sometimes it's been really interesting, but it didn't sometimes, it's also felt really heavy. Very, very heavy. Right?
Zione What were the heavy bits for you? I mean, you talked, for instance, about things like “situational strength”, you know, I'd never heard that expression before. But I really loved it. It made a lot of sense to me. I don't know if you could explain that to our listeners.
Nyadol Yeah. You know, because I think that it's something I've been thinking about for the last two years, to be honest. Because I think, like many black women, we grow up with this idea of a strong black woman, and it's an identity that becomes almost the core identity. And I think it's an identity that is forged out of survival.
And for me, and for the women in my community, we had to be strong because we know this [community is] one where mothers who are raising children in refugee camps by themselves. But I think what that misses is that strength is a single impulse to leave a life, right? And then there is also thriving. There's also vulnerability, there is also joy, there's also rest and we are not permitted that and identity that is built entirely on strength that does not permit that, right? And so, you know, now when people ask me what it means to be a strong woman, I say I am not. And that I, what I want instead is to be “situationally strong”. That is, that means to have the resources, internal and otherwise, so internal resources of resilience of finding mental tools for surviving, I suppose, challenges in my life. I want to have that.
And also, you know, relationships with families that helped me survive those things. I want to have those, I want to have those resources so that when a situation arises that requires me to be strong, I'm able to be strong. But I don't want to be strong all the time.
Zione That’s exhausting.
Nyadol Because that means that I've reconciled myself to the particular challenge, instead of actually transforming the challenge. Strength! You know, I was reading this fantastic book by, of course, it's fantastic bell hooks, you know…
Zione It's fantastic.
Nyadol And she, you know, she talks about how even this identity of being a strong black woman, you know, especially in the context of the United States came from surviving slavery.
Zione Absolutely.
Nyadol And somehow now we've embedded it as a form of…
Zione …existence!
Nyadol Existence! Yeah, exactly. And it's like, everybody else gets to be silly and be fun…
Zione …and be frivolous.
Nyadol Yes. And we get to be strong, you know, and it's like, actually, no, I want to be vulnerable. And I want to be blonde haired. And…
Zione Yes, absolutely!
Nyadol …and all this part of myself. So I think that's what I mean, by “situational strength”, just like “situational vulnerability”, like, can’t be vulnerable all the time!
Zione Exactly.
Nyadol The core idea is to be able to experience your humanity in full.
Zione Absolutely. I love that. I love that. And that, as you start to evolve, you're always adapting. And that capability to adapt means that you pick and choose the moments where you want to be strong, and where you feel safe enough to be vulnerable. Yeah, I really, really liked that. I think that's really, really a very helpful context for a lot of us. Because, like you said, that package of strong black women was forged in trauma.
Nyadol Yeah!
Zione And then you're carrying that trauma, without processing it, and healing from it, and saying: “well, what's the value that I've learned from that experience?” So I can take that on and leave the rest.
Nyadol …and also become your orientation towards life, right? It becomes your default setting towards life. And I think that really denies you a variety of ways of feeling life and living life. And that, to me, is an example of a dance. Right? Yeah, you come from a culture that tells you, “you have to be strong, women have to be strong, we have to be the backbone, we have to be this”. And so you carry that. And I did, you know, 17 years coming into this country, I just kept pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing, it was my orientation towards life. There was no…
Zione No room for anything else.
Nyadol …[room] for anything else! But also, [that] even just… it wasn’t even… it didn't even occur to me. That's the interesting thing. It didn't even occur to me that I was allowed to be something else than just strong.
So when you get into this situation where you're working, you know, you're working a job as a lawyer, and you're doing advocacy, and you're barely sleeping, and you're so exhausted. You just keep going. You know…
Zione Yeah. Because that's the only way there is to be, right? Wow. So as you were talking, and you're talking about that being one's default orientation. And culturally that there's, almost, that expectation. So what's the expectation on men then? And in fact, more importantly, for us as women, how does that manifest in relationships? If one's orientation is “I'm going to be strong all the time”, in fact, there's no other way to be, how do you navigate a context with a man who may be himself also thinks I've got to be strong all the time. How does that play out in those situations?
Nyadol It’s a really interesting question for me, because like, I mean, I don't talk about this. I mean, I think this is probably one of the first podcasts where I might talk about it publicly. I went through a divorce, you know. And I think in some ways, there was, to me, a tension of that, right? Where I think in my community particularly or maybe… I'm… or at least, the way I felt, to me was that you were supposed to be strong for others, but never strong for yourself.
So you weren't supposed to when someone did something to you, or you're supposed to be strong and keep going. But you couldn't be strong in standing [up] for yourself and saying, I want to be treated this way. Now that was selfish, right? And I think that yeah, and then when you put those cultural issues within the context of a new society that creates new expectations and even if it's new expectations of what you should be as a woman, but even just the way things shift.
Like, you're working and they're working, and all these things that kind of contribute into making a relationship quite different from what they would have presented, say in, you know, 10-15 years [ago] back in Sudan. It's…it's…I think, really makes it very, very hard. Because on one hand, I felt as though you had to embrace this disjointed psychology where you were strong for other people, but you knew how to make yourself small, when it was appropriate, because that's what women did. It was really weird, you know.
And I remember talking to, you know, Sudanese men in my community back and forth about this debate. I'm like, everybody wants you to go out there and be strong and campaign against racism. But the moment like someone says something rude to you, who happens to be a menace, then somehow kind of crumbles and [does] not exhibit the same strength and the same pushback. I'm not the same person that sort of does, that is the same person that…[it] was quite interesting to experience those things. And that dance as well, right? Like that dance of “what does it mean to be a woman, or even not a woman, a person, in your own community context, in the context of a community that has migrated to a new country? And in the context of yourself and your own personal growth? You know...
Zione Exactly. Where's your personhood in all of that, in all these layers? Are you allowed to just be you? Just chart your own course, and be the author of your own destiny, irrespective of all these other layers of cultural identity and context that we exist in.
Nyadol And I've found that part quite also, I mean, I'm going to use the word interesting, I use the word interesting more and more nowadays, because I realise it's the only way that sometimes I can sort of hold onto curiosity with that hate and anger.
But you know, but I really - and also, when you begin to, like, have this kind of people [or] public profile, you know, you speak in the media, and a lot of people actually think I'm kind of ranting all over the place. But a lot of people think that I sort of made a choice to do this. You know, that I wanted to be an advocate; you know, well, in fact, I didn't. I absolutely did not want to be like…
I was, at the time, I was a commercial lawyer at a very good firm. I loved my job. Yeah, it was really fun. I worked at a really good law firm. I was planning to just put my head down, you know..
Zione …do your work, do your work as a lawyer…
Nyadol Yes! Since I was a 14 year old in refugee camps, I'm going to be a lawyer one day.
Zione Oh, wow.
Nyadol So to me that was what I wanted to do. And of course, then you have the African gangs and whatever, and you're like, “Okay, I'm not, I'm not allowed to just concentrate on contractual deals…” I still have to go to, you know, a vape shop. And there is like a front page picture of people who look like me, I have to take a train and someone thinks that, you know, “I’m not going to sit next to you”, like, you know, so I was like, I can't escape this.
And that was one of the reasons why I started speaking back, right? Because of that, and because of the impact that I was seeing of what that kind of media coverage was doing to people in my life!
Like, you know, seeing, having conversations with a young Sudanese girl who says, you know, “whenever I sit in a train, I just want to disappear”, you know. And to hear that from a kid that you spoke to two months ago and had this huge sense of self confidence. [Who] I suppose, you know, was dreaming for life, all of a sudden reduced to this shell, you know. [And] to hear your own mother accept things like, being called a black dog as if it's a greeting. Those were the kind of things that made me go, “well, actually, this is pissing me off”.
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Nyadol People didn't realise that I paid a price for that, like I paid a processional price. And I feel like it really contributed to losing… like having to give up my career, but also the financial costs. You know, all of this, most of this work is voluntary. You know, the emotional cost of dealing with the racist abuse, of dealing with the pressure, of [dealing with] the trolls.
You know, I tell people there are times especially in the thick of the African gang thing, when I was heavily pregnant and being heavily trolled and I didn't even feel safe sleeping in my own house. I used to go and sleep at my sister's. Because my rationale was, I don't know if I can defend myself heavily pregnant with a two year old. I didn't feel safe in my own house. Like and so it was all those things happening, and most of them happening on yourself. So it's a very lonely process.
And then now, you know, now that that has become sort of its own thing. People now have all these expectations on you, right? And you…and it's just sometimes shattering, you know. Also sometimes just quite - I can't find the word for it- but you know, so yeah, like as if you're always going to be a disappointment, no matter what you do, right?
Zione Like a disappointment to who, like yourself? Or your community or just to someone? Anybody?
Nyadol Yeah, I mean, I think I'll give you an example because that might nail it a bit. So I, in the same week, I went to an event and I was told by someone there who's relatively like, you know, senior wherever, they say to me, I think they introduced me something like “this is Nyadol Nyoun, the opinionated lawyer” or something like that.
And I just kept thinking, opinionated? And I realised other people get to have views, I get to have an opinion, you know…
Zione Like, loaded
Zione and Nyadol [chuckles]
Nyadol I get to have loaded opinions, right? And so that was quite interesting. But the same week, at the end of that week, I go to the multicultural gala dinner, right? And someone ther tells me, I feel like you've toned down.
Zione Was that somebody from the community? Yeah, right.
Nyadol [They are telling me] I feel like you've toned down. I feel like you've really toned down. And that weekend, I go see a friend and one of the other friends tells me, she's had conversations with people that think I've sold out!
Zione Wow!
Nyadol The same week, I've gone from super opinionated to, you've kind of toned down to, you've sold out completely!
Zione and Nyadol [chuckle]
Nyadol And I just remember thinking, wow, like, where am I in all this? As a person and as a human being and as a…? And you know, and how do I even fulfil these expectations, right? And it's been, it's been quite an experience, you know?
But I made a conscious decision even this year, especially the comment about the fact that I've sold out. The person said that they felt that I'd sold out because I've gone quiet, right? And it was interesting that the only interpretation they can get from the fact that I've become more quiet, is that I've sold out and not that I'm resting.
Zione Yes!
Nyadol I mean, in my head, I'm like, yes, yes I have slowed down. Because I'm exhausted.
Zione Yes, I have two young children. I have a life. I've got to care for myself.
Nyadol Yes!
Zione Absolutely!
Nyadol I am tired. Like, I am tired. I know I'm tired. You know, I know that because my body was crashing last year, you know, out of sheer exhaustion. I can't run like this.
Zione And, you know, nobody should.
Nyadol And also, I mean, maybe other people have [the] stamina to run like this all the time. But I have to admit to myself that I've gotten to a point in my life right now where I cannot sustain this.
Zione And that's you honouring your truth, right? That context of community leadership, which a lot of people tend to maybe not be very cognisant of is, you don't have institutional support, right? You're not an elected official who's got a PA and you know, all of these other backings to kind of shore you up. You're doing it all by yourself. One hundred per cent!
Nyadol Oh, my god. Yes, that's such a good point. Like it's such an important, important point, right? Because people have institutional expectations of you.
Zione Yes!
Nyadol Like in, not in what you're able to bring to the table, but even what they expect you to change.
Zione Absolutely! And the accountability? [What?] Sorry?
Nyadol Yes, yes. Institutional expectation, institutional accountability and then you have no institutional support. You're an individual, right? So every single time I went on The Drum, I went on Q&A, I had to do my own research, nobody prepared my talking points. I don't have a staff that prepared me, I had to do my own research. I had to figure out what my arguments are going to be. [I] had to then present them. And sometimes I was literally in the same place with departmental heads that have a whole team of people to do this for them.
And then they finish this presentation, and they're back to their life in some form, right? I then have to go back, monitor all the social media, delete all the things. And when I get home, I have to get out of social media, deactivate all my stuff, right? So it's this.
And then you do all that for no pay, by the way. That's what happened with not being on the institutional path. And then people make assumptions… Like I have been told by my own community that they think that I make money off them. And I’m like…
Zione How...?
Nyadol And you have no idea that I was broke. There were times like, I'm not even, I wish I was joking. Like early 2000, working part time doing all this. I was broke. There was a point [where] I couldn't afford to buy my son antibiotics. I had to borrow $50 from my sister. So imagine how much it hurts when you see people say things like that, you know? And what, what price you feel you've paid and you can't even say that because to even say that it's, like, somehow boastful or somehow you know? So you just sit around with all these feelings and all this, you know, all this sometimes loneliness and sometimes anger and sometimes regret!
Like, did I actually make the right choice? Could I have made… was there a smarter choice for me to have just shut up? Put my head down, make my money at a commercial firm, and buy myself and my kids a house, have a life. An individual life. Could I have, you know, did I make… And to be honest, I'm not often sure that I didn't make the right choice.
Zione So this is interesting. So from an outsider perspective, that, you know, I don't know the intricacies of all of that. You're a young woman, you're the head of an academic institution at your age, which is phenomenal, by the way, absolutely phenomenal for anybody.
And you've had this journey of community leadership and advocacy for 10 years, you've worked at a top law firm for another six. So if I look at the fullness of your life, on the outside, okay? This is just on the outside; it feels like all those difficult choices have led you to where you are, which is as a phenomenal woman, anywhere in the world by any measure. People would say, you're a rock star, totally!
Nyadol People…or you would say, because some people still don’t think that I…[chuckles].
Zione They just need space, they just need space to kind of, you know, take a few deep breaths.
Zione and Nyadol [chuckle]
Nyadol Like someone asked me, how did you get this role? But it's a thank you for that, because it's beautiful. But it's also really revealing because, you know… You say that, and I remember, like, I know how many times for example, I've had, even as… they… I'm not gonna say [who] that someone is...
But, you know, I start a new job and someone says to me: “I was quite surprised that they went for somebody like you”. And of course, this is, this is a white man. And he goes, you know, you are a young woman on the rise. But you have not, you don't have this, you don't have this, you don't have this...
But this is supposed to be somebody that I'm technically their boss, you know, telling me in a meeting, that I'm supposed to be talking to him about some particular thing that he didn't think I should be doing this job right now. Or it was, you know, being appointed to a board. And the first question somebody asked me was, how did you get this job?
Zione Wow.
Nyadol You know, and I, you know, and I…and the funny part is, none of these people say it from a place of hateful racism, right? That he wasn't. And this will always tell people racism often doesn't turn up in a Ku Klux Klan. Burning a flag.
It is the assumptions you give people, it’s the race you give people. So you know what you just said… I don't enjoy that... No. People don't, don't look at my resume.
I mean, even the people on The Drum, right? People don't, like some of the comments I get, people don't think, “Oh, she's, she's got, you know, she’s worked for a commercial firm. She's like, you know, been in advocacy of some form, for 10 years…” No, they see diversity. You know, they see, “how did you get here”? You know, despite your resume, right? In which… if somebody had a similar resume, they'll never get asked that same question. If they didn't look, [if] they didn't have the black passport.
Zione and Nyadol [chuckle]
Nyadol Which, you know, which is almost like, what people decide where they're going to give you access or not, when you have the black passport, you know.
Zione Yeah, or what sort of authority we can ascribe to you
Nyadol Oh my god, absolutely, yes!
Zione You know, that's so interesting. But of course, it says more about them. And, you know, as we kind of round off this conversation, I kind of want to, I want to acknowledge that fact, you know. That you have been on that journey, you continue to go on that journey for the rest of your life.
And I just look forward to a day when you look back and just laugh. That's what I say to myself. I keep thinking, when I'm eighty, when I'm going through difficult times, I think to myself, when I'm eighty will this be entertaining? And if the answer is yes, I'm like, I'm cool. Bring it!
Nyadol I'm kind of getting there already, to be honest. Like I think I've always joked that I've always had my crises very early on. But I feel like I'm there. I feel like I'm there in the sense that I am done to some degree. And I think it's definitely a growth thing. But I'm done to some degree with this idea of striving, this idea of strength, this idea of justification, I'm working through that. And I want to be a person that is, you know, a doing person, but also a person who is just to be…
Zione Absolutely.
Nyadol You know, and so part of that attitude is just looking at some of these things and going, you know; and I walked into rooms and I'm like, I am not the diversity! All of you are the diversification of this place! I am not, not the diversity one. I had no connections when I came to this country. I had no people I can call and so…
Zione You just made it happen!
Nyadol Yeah, we just, I just, you know, I hustled. And we're all lucky in so many ways. We get grace that we don't deserve in so many ways. I'm quite aware of that. But I'm also no longer so frightened. That is the truth! To the assumptions that they make about me and people who look like me.
Zione That is fantastic. Nyadol, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. It always is.
Nyadol And I love you too.
Zione And we have learned so much. There are just so many gems. Thank you so so very much. Thank you.
Nyadol Thank you.
[music]
Noè Ah, that was amazing. So I mean, seriously, super amazing. I mean, I'm sure we put so much that we want to enter in and say about it. But I mean, for me, one of the massive key takeaways - just to start us off with - was that whole notion that she brought in about “situational strength”, right?
And within her cultural context, that whole notion that “situational strength”, or that strength meant that you had to be strong for others, but not for yourself.
Zione That's right. So you're out there as an advocate, doing all of these things, being very outspoken. And yet, when you come here: silence. [People saying] I don't want to hear too much from you. We don't need your opinions or your views, just know your place.
Noè And that as a woman, as a black woman, that the notion of being a strong black woman…
Zione Yeah, it's such a trope, it's so out there, right? Like you can't be delicate, a delicate petal, or have time for rest or joy or vulnerability or softness, you got to be, like, strong all the time. And that example she gave about, you know, the writer bell hooks talking about that strong black woman trope being a survival mechanism around slavery. And therefore, you know, it's not necessary. There are elements about strength that are useful: take that. And the rest, leave to the wayside.
Noè So I found that really fascinating, because also, then if you take it into - and Anna I'd love to hear your thoughts on this - an Asian trope, where we're looking at ideals around Orientalism or fetishism, the whole notion of the strength or the notion of what it means in an Asian culture, you know. I was brought up that Asian women are silent. They have a particular way of behaving, which is much more in the background and much more silent, that notion of being strong as an Asian woman is to be in that background. And to be a lot more quiet, and a lot less heard.
Anna And what I'm noticing is maybe a cultural articulation of that, which is in Australia, perhaps speaking up was a sign of strength. But in the Korean context, what I'm experiencing day to day at the moment is that there is strength in holding back. That, that's also seen as a virtue and an attribute. So for a bit of a hybrid like me, I'm getting mixed signals.
Zione Yes, yes!
Anna …mixed signals was also something Nyadol received when she kind of was the advocate being very vocal, then, you know kind of the know your place sort of signal. But when she went quiet - to do a lot of self care that was much needed - there was an accusation of selling out.
Zione Yes!
Anna So you can't win. You can't win! Because there's mixed signals. Because there are very confused societal expectations…
Zione Yeah, absolutely…
Anna …about the role that you should play.
Zione Absolutely. I just love that distinction, you know, and that story about opinions versus views. And, the same day, these different views popped up for her around “your opinionated” to “you're too toned down” to “you've sold out”!
Same person, same context, but depending on the speaker's perception, “this is how you're appearing to us”.
Noè That you can never do enough to satisfy people because what people's expectations are of you are their other projections.
Zione Exactly.
Noè Also their own needs of what you should be doing for them.
Zione Yes, yes! 100%. Which is why I really liked how she then went into that conversation around sort of volunteer leadership and institutional accountability and expectation - without the commensurate institutional support and power.
So that when you take on that mantle, like she talked about being on panels with, you know, heads of departments and so on, you know, they're paid to do that job. She's just a volunteer leader who is doing her own research, her own everything. But yet, the expectation is that you have the same team… Certainly, you should appear like you have a team.
And you should have the same where with it, all the same knowledge and the same accountability back to your own community. You're not elected. You're just presenting a perspective, an observation, a view, or passionate, a context; but the responsibility is onerous, and she talked about paying a price, didn't she?
Anna Yeah, she really did. And to be honest, I was shocked at the extent [of] how heavy a price she paid. Because at some point, she mentioned how she was concerned about her own physical safety. And it was not just the emotional, you know, “me trying to meet impossible expectations”, but also financially, like her career, like her own health.
Like, it's just literally everything, was… this… it came with this price that she had to pay because she was willing to play the community leadership role. And what really resonated with me in that part of the interview was this is how so many community leaders from multicultural communities in Australia, this is the life that they choose because they have that calling.
But when I speak to people who may not be exposed, yeah, like, and have personal relationships with multicultural community leaders in Australia, somehow get this perception that they have this glamorous life: being featured on TV, being interviewed, getting these honours that the government gives you. But it’s…they don’t do it for the glamour!
Zione Not at all…
Noè It’s not all that glamorous…
Anna It’s a duty, it’s a calling. And you sacrifice. You do it for that cause. And that was so clearly and beautifully articulated by Nyadol in her conversation with you.
I mean to be honest, I don’t think I ever saw her [to be that personal] …and she did reveal some things about herself that she says she’s never said, like publicly. And I do think it’s because she was talking to you, Zione, that it was talking to someone, like me, who would have the goodwill to just hear me out…And not, you know…
Noè And not be judgey…
Anna Or imposed one of those impossible expectations on her.
Noè That’s right. Understand where she is coming from.
Zione Yeah it was really important to…and I mean, I didn’t know she was going to reveal that and I actually didn’t know that was her life circumstance either. So I was hearing it for the first time like the listeners, right?
But it was really important in hearing that to just be a space, just hold space for somebody to feel safe enough to say: look, I’m appearing here not in my professional capacity as the director of this that and the other, but appearing here as a human being to share some of my context so that it illuminates things for other people. To put yourself in that vulnerable space, where you’re sharing those vulnerable things, I deeply respected and appreciated that.
Anna And maybe Zione, maybe it’s that voice of yours, maybe….
Noè Oh my gosh
Anna Maybe you lull us into…
Zione I really can’t hear what you guys are talking about; but thank you, I’ll take it. I’ll take it.
Noè We all get lulled into a sense of security…
Zione I’m looking for a Barry White voice, that’s where I’m going …
Noè No…and you’re kind of there. You’re the female Barry White voice for us…we all get lulled into a false sense of security.
All [chuckles]
Zione And then, boom!
Noè Then boom, comes the lawyer.
All [chuckles]
Noè No, but it [the interview] was incredible. And what I loved also was that individuality - and the individual about being the you in the community context; the you being in your community context versus the migrant community context versus the mainstream community context. And to me, the whole thread, again, about individuality and how you hold that, you know. And I find that…
Zione it’s a real tension, isn’t it?
Noè …it’s a real tension. And how do you hold your needs and your own viewpoints while you’re doing it.
Zione Yeah, totally. That came clear. And she said something about, you know, she was done with the striving and the justification and the doing, right? We’re always caught up in the doing. We’ve got to do this and we’ve got to do that. And she just wanted to be in the being, right?
Anna She said she was tired. What courage does that take…
Noè …to say that! For a woman to say that!
Anna For a woman, for a community leader, with a public profile. To say, actually, I’m tired.
Noè You know, can I say one thing, sorry because we probably don’t have time. I wrote this down because it was super meaningful to me that: “racism doesn’t have to be obvious to be hateful and wrong.”
And this is something I’ve recently been confronting and it’s often really simple and underhanding, it’s often simple othering. And I love that she has sort of realised and [has] decided that there is no longer truth, just because other people say it is thus. And the strength of that to me, is her real strength.
Zione It’s liberating, isn’t it.
Noè It’s liberating. It’s liberating when you realise that for yourself.
Zione That, it’s just your perspective. Thank you. Moving on.
Anna Sorry, we’re like, we all want to talk at the same time because we are so inspired by this interview…
Noè So inspired!
Anna For me, that example of what you mentioned Noè, was when Nyadol said so many people came up to her and said, how did you get this job?
Zione So offensive…
Noè Yes. Yes. Yes.
Anna Like it was, unbelievable! But it was also so believable that, that would happen in Australia in 2023. It was 100%, like I could almost see, almost visualise, that happening.
Noè We know who said it.
Zione Yes, exactly.
All [chuckle]
Anna I almost have a face and a name of [who may have said it]...
Noè 100%
Zione You know we sometimes found ourselves in those positions, right? Where people are questioning your capability and your…
Noè And your reason for being in those roles, or the reason why you would want that role, or the reason why you should have that role.
Zione Who made that decision? I wasn’t consulted!
Noè Well, I’m sure we could talk about that for a fair [amount of time]
Zione There is a future episode in that, I can feel it.
Noè And I’m there’s a few off the record, offline, off the record conversations about that.
Zione Definitely, definitely. I’m feeling some piercings in my soul, I need to debrief…
All [chuckle]
Noè There’s a few text messages coming your way, ladies.
Zione Yes. Absolutely.
Anna There’s a look in Noè’s eyes that are just like, this could be an entire season…
Zione We need some healin’.
Noè People who have wronged me…
Zione The list! The hit list!
All [chuckle]
Anna But speaking of people who have wronged us, Zione, what I loved what you said: if this is something I can laugh about when I’m eighty, I’m ok with that.
Zione Yeah, you got to… you got to find something!
Noè Is this something you’ll be laughing about when you’re eighty, Zione?
Zione Yes, yes.
Noè Really? Really?
Zione Yes. Yes. Because you know what that does for me? It helps me overcome the shenanigans of the moment. It doesn’t mean I don’t hate it, [or] I don’t wallow. I wallow. But I’m like ‘that’s right, you’re future entertainment for me.’ Phsss - gone!
All [chuckle]
Anna Woo woo! If that’s not rising above, I don’t know what is!
Noè She’s a fabulous human, we know that, so…there’s lots of people…that’s why I hang out with you guys. Better than me.
Anna That’s a big call!
Zione Did she say we’re better than her?
Noè Yes! Sisters…sisters…
Zione Oh my goodness. Let that sink in!
Anna And we have that on record too…
Noè Oh my gosh, I’d never shy away.
All [chuckle]
Anna Maybe while it’s good maybe we should end the conversation.
Zione Totally. Both of you thank you so much for your insights. Really enjoyed that.
Noè Amazing. Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to Like Us and SBS Audio Podcast. You can find more episodes at sbs .com .au /likeus and follow us in the SBS Audio app or wherever you get your podcast. Your hosts are me, Noè Harsel, Anna Yeon, Zione Walker-Nthenda. We are produced and engineered by Michael Burrows at Tomato Studios with support from the podcast team at SBS Audio.
