In this season of Like Us, hosts Anna Yeon, Noè Harsel and Zione Walker-Nthenda are inviting some of their favourite people in for a chat about their lives and purpose. Then they share the interviews with each-other and regroup to unpack.
In this episode, Zione sits down with community builder Mariam Issa. Mariam, her husband and five children found a new home in Australia in 1998 after fleeing Somalia's civil war. She co-founded the not-for-profit organisation and community garden RAW (Resilient Aspiring Women) in her own backyard, and is an ambassador for the Refugee Council of Australia.
Even when I was given the opportunity to escape a war, I came into a space where nobody knew me... So the war that was going on inside of me was a war of belonging, a war of inclusivity, a war of wanting a community.Mariam Issa
Mariam chats with Zione about creating connection and community, and making space to understand your own individuality.
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Transcript
We would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are broadcasting from, the Boonwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, we pay our respects to their Elders past and present. We would also like to acknowledge all Traditional Owners from all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander lands you are listening from.
[music]
Like Us is Anna Yeon, Zione Walker-Nthenda and me Noè Harsel: a Japanese Jewish woman, a Korean woman and a Nigerian-Malawian woman chatting about our relationship with Australia and Australia’s relationship with us.
Noè Hey everyone, it’s so good to see you! How are we going?
Zione Good. I'm feeling really energised and enthusiastic for some reason.
Noè Really?
Zione I know, I can only be grateful! It doesn't happen everyday.
Noè …doesn’t happen everyday.
Anna Well, I heard you had some incredible conversation with someone incredible, Zione. Did you want to tell us about that?
Zione Yes, absolutely. So Mariam Issa, she's just amazing. So she came to Australia as a mother, fleeing Civil War from Somalia, got on a boat, you know, all of that. [She] had lived in Kenya.
Noè Wow.
Zione And ended up, you know, with her hijab and her children in Brighton, in the 80s.
Noè That amazes me.
Zione Yeah, right, in Brighton in the 80s. Okay. And she ended up setting up a garden, which she calls the royal garden. It's still thriving till this day. So it’s still in Brighton still at the back of her house. And she set it up because she wanted to invite the community into her home because she realised that they were scared of her post September 11; that they didn't understand her. And she also realised that she didn't know the community either.
Noè So brave. I mean, there’s something in that that is super brave.
Zione Yeah, just remarkable. And she's been featured on TV and her garden has been featured with ABC Gardens and all of that stuff. But what she did, it wasn't just about planting the garden, she'd invite people over and cook and tell her story. And then people started telling their stories. And then they started planting things in her garden.
Noè So the people in her neighbourhood she'd invite in?
Zione Regular Brighton folk.
Anna So much action in Brighton.
Zione I know, I know. So I'm really looking forward to sharing that interview with you guys.
Noè Unbelievable. Let's listen to this because I can't wait.
[music]
Zione Thank you very, very much Mariam for agreeing to have this conversation with me. I'm really looking forward to talking to a very phenomenal woman who I've known for many, many years. I have many questions. But I know this will just flow like honey, just a flowing conversation. And so I am very, very interested in the fact that you've lived quite a public life in many ways, and you've been interviewed by many people. And I'm interested in what that experience has been like for you, and then I'll dive into a few other questions that I have as well.
Mariam Thank you so much Zione, for first of all, inviting me to this beautiful and gracious space. I think it's a platform that, you know, always when we're given a platform that is conscious and breathing to share our stories; it's always an incredible thing. But also coming from a sister, you know, coming from… I've never been interviewed by an African sister before and that is super special to me, as well. And I know you, and you are a friend, and we always dive into conversations and go into the deep-end. So I'm hoping and knowing that the same will happen.
So yes, I'm sort of a public person. And it didn't go…it didn't start intentionally. I sort of just went into it. It was from my passion from the love that I had for, you know, connecting community and sharing my cultural currency. And I always say that, you know, culture is a currency and coming to Australia living in a very white space, I felt that I wasn't known to the community that I'd come to. So the idea was to really delve in and connect. Connection is one of my, you know, values. I live life now by values, which I didn't know before. And I think it's really super important for us to have values in our lives to make a meaningful life. Because I've realised in all the years and all the, you know, journeys that I have had, if you are not intentional with your life, then you will just be floating. Yeah. Yes.
Zione So you sort of need an anchor.
Mariam Totally.
Zione And for you values are that anchor…
Mariam …values are the anchor, and it's the place where you start to make your own foundations, your grounding. Yeah.
Zione So that's really, really important. And I, when I think about the fact that you've got this amazing garden, and you're talking about foundations and values, so I'm interested in this notion of: what's the foundation for you for setting that up?
And this notion of connection, like how do you breathe life into this value of connection in a garden space that's in your backyard?
Mariam …in my backyard, which was a really… It was a big idea, which I didn't really think about. And then realised the intensity and the immensity of it. I just went into it. Because I feel like I was being guided to do it. I wasn't actually asked. I feel like, intuitively, it was something that was pushing me to create this space. And even you know, the organisation's name says so much about the space.
So as you know, it's called RAW, which translates for Resilient Aspiring Women. And if you read raw backwards, it's war. So it was sort of my, you know, it’s linked to my journey. And I was sort of kind of told to really let go of the war inside and tap into my resilience, and aspirations. I think this was very timely. It was in 2012, that the organisation started. But I feel it's still very timely for us women, especially, because having connected to earth. I feel that women are being called to really step up, and they are the conduits of compassion, and they are the womb of creation. Without women taking the lead - you've seen what the patriarchy has done.
Zione and Mariam [laugh]
Zione Where do we begin?
Mariam Where do we start?
Zione Exactly, exactly. And so this notion of the war inside, what was the war inside for you? I know that there's this sort of bigger war when you talk about the journey of, I suppose, the crisis of the war externally that one was escaping from to come to Australia. But what was the war inside you? Do you know what that is?
Mariam Yeah. So the war actually even in Somalia informs the war that I was going through, because it was a civil war. It was just like an autoimmune disease. You know, it is a body that did not function well. And it was going against itself. And so I brought that with me when I came here. But I think also it was seconded by the war of coming into a new space.
Even when I was given the opportunity to escape a war, I came into a space where nobody knew me. And [I] saw the war that was going inside of me, it was a war of belonging, a war of inclusivity. A war of wanting a community. But then there wasn't a community that helped me and opened the door for me.
Zione Yeah, wow. And so how did you then create community because it's quite a gutsy thing to do to come to a new environment, and realise, I somehow don't feel like I belong. But I want to belong, because connection is a core aspiration or value of mine. How do you then take the lead and say, well, I'm going to, you know, barge through and create connection and create a community that feels like home for me?
Mariam Totally. And I wish I could say, you know Zione, I sat down and made a plan; you know, did a strategic planning session. No, I did none of that.
But I think, you know, it didn't even start with me. It started with my children. And I think, there it goes, again, as a mother, you want your children to belong. So for me, I wasn't looking, I wasn't looking out for myself. It was all [because] I came here for an opportunity for my children to have a life.
And then unfortunately, I think what - or maybe fortunately, actually - what gave me the opportunity, for me to discover that I was living in fear, was the fact that I took my child who was born in the heart of this community when she reached kinder, to a kindergarten, and you know, we were received with a frosty reception. Nothing bad was really said, but the reception was really very cold. And when we came out, she asked me: Mum, did they not want me because I'm black?
Zione Oh…
Mariam So I think that's when the penny dropped for me. And I think two years prior to that September 11 had happened. We were in fear, you know, I wasn't only black in Brighton, but I was also Muslim in Brighton. And so all those things, you know, we're harbouring in my heart.
And I was, you know, closing it off with this fear and building walls. And so when Sarah [my daughter] said that, I think the walls shattered. And I was like: whoa, you know, I need to do something here. I'm in fear, and our family is in fear. So what can I do?
And I think that's what made me step up into becoming a community member.
Zione And how did you do that? So you recognise that you're afraid - some of us will just say: okay, I get that I'm afraid I'll just keep building those walls to feel safer.
But you decided to shatter those walls to do what and how?
Mariam So what came into mind was that: oh, this is my, you know, this is a community that I live in. And I knew nothing about it. So I started from a really good place. I started from curiosity. I wanted to get to know this community. So I went out and I started, you know, volunteering in my children's school, volunteering in community centres. And I think that's what opened, you know, it opened doors for me. I started talking to people.
And then I'm also a woman of faith and a woman of spirits, you know, a spiritual grounding. So every morning when I'm in my, you know, sitting on my mat, I'm asking: why am I here, you know? Nobody ever, I believe, is anywhere randomly. People are called to the places they come to. And when we ask powerful questions, I know that powerful answers are given to us.
So having asked that question: why am I here? And why am I in Brighton's backyard, you know? All the way from [Kenya]? And you know, as a speaker now, and going everywhere, the first question [and] the most frequently asked question is, how did you get into Brighton?
Zione and Mariam [laugh]
Mariam How did you even get there? So it's, that was the question I asked. And I think the answer that came for me was that I was here to remind people of their community being communal, and I knew that really well, because I come from a communal culture. But what I wasn't ready for, and I didn't know, was the fact that I was also receiving something from this community [while] living an individual life, and getting to know myself as an individual.
[music]
Zione What I'm hearing from you is that sort of mutuality, right? Like, when you go to a new place, that place has something to give you and you have something to give it. And for you, what you were bringing with you, the wisdom you were bringing, was how to live in community with other people, and in harmony with other people. And what you got from this place well, was you can be communal, but you still are an individual. So how do you still respect your own individuality within the community?
Mariam Oh, totally.
Zione That is a big task!
Mariam That is a big one. And not only how do you respect it, but how do you revere it? You know, because in communal cultures, we forget ourselves. We are one, you know, and you only know yourself through others. So learning my individuality was actually going back to school: what do I like, you know, starting to even know what colour do I like? You know, what foods? When I was asked all these questions, I was like: whoa, I didn't even know that. That I had preferences. You know?
Zione That's fascinating. That's, that's fascinating to me. You know, that notion of, things that a lot of people take for granted - really basic things about your own personal preferences, about colour or taste or food. That, if you live in a very, very communal way, it's not an important criteria or question, so you never pay any attention to it. It's what does the community want? And that's where it starts and ends. That's it.
So where would you say you are in that discovery? Of, you know, still respecting and admiring and loving that communal way of doing things and yet still revering your individuality? Are you still on… Is it a permanent quest for you, for everyone?
Mariam Oh, totally. I think you know, this understanding of my individuality has opened also doors for really connecting to oneself. Connecting to self. And that's where I came up with values, you know? Life is just life you have to imbue meaning into it - it doesn't have meaning in itself.
So that individuality and that quest of, like: who am I? And what am I doing at any given time, like when… even being here today, you've invited me to talk: what is my intention? Why do I want to contribute to this? What do I want the listeners to take away from this? So I think it gives you focus. And it's really powerful, you know, to have [this focus].
To really know oneself. And once you have that ability to have that self governance, I think you can govern the world around you. And sometimes, you know, we think that the world is one, but each individual is a world in themselves. So once you understand your world, you can share it with other people, you know, in terms of creating one of the things that was most important to me I learnt was creating boundaries - which many communal cultures do not have.
Zione and Mariam [laugh]
Zione In a very literal sense, even, right? Like, physically people all sleeping in the same environment…
Mariam In the same room…
Zione Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Mariam So discovering that having a room to myself, you know. One of my friends, I remember, asked me: what is the, you know, the thing that you would say you got the best from the Western culture? And I said, having a room to myself, you know? Having my own room and being able to close my door when I need to.
Zione Fantastic. I've got, you know, a number of things that you've shared today around courage and curiosity and creativity, and that circular notion of constantly giving and receiving. I just really, really love that.
So I sort of want to close with this notion of, this idea that, you've had this opportunity, right? Like every time you go to a new place, it's like you get an opportunity to reinvent yourself, re-live again, right? And so what would you say - looking back and looking forward and being present - what would you want your legacy to be in this place?
Mariam Wow, that's a big question. Well, my legacy is for women to really tap into their power. Have women understand that they are leaders, whether they have a title or not. And I think that is very, very important to me, because I come from a patriarchal culture.
And what I have discovered for myself, is that there is an incredible reservoir that is within us - it's not outside of us - and to be able to find the resources in that reservoir, and to become the resourceful people who go into that, you know, reservoir to really be able to extract these gems for for ourselves. And there are so many ways that we can do that. So many opportunities.
And I think the world that has emerged for us after COVID is really calling for that. It's calling for women leaders. It's calling for us to really come and heal with each other, but also heal the world. And as I started off with before, women are truly the, you know, the conduits of compassion. We're carrying that light, and we are the womb of creation.
Without us, there is no world. And so it's time that we took on this world, that [we] claimed our power.
Zione That's fantastic. I love that. I love that you've thrown in another C word. And I love alliteration. So I've gotten from you: courage, creativity, curiosity, compassion, and that sort of circular notion of giving and receiving, endlessly. I love that.
Mariam Let's throw celebrations in there.
Zione Wooo, why not?
Mariam To celebrate: we need to celebrate each other and celebrate ourselves. So the world is nothing without celebration.
Zione Absolutely. I love that. I love that. And on that note, thank you so very much. I celebrate you. Thank you.
Mariam Great. You too. Thank you so much for having me.
Zione Thank you.
[music]
Zione So I'm so curious to know what you both thought having listened to her. As you know, she's also a life coach, and a storyteller and an educator and a community builder. But she shared certain elements of her life. What did you both think?
Anna That was an incredible conversation to be able to listen to, and there was so much in there, obviously. But the thing, I think, that kind of wrenched my heart the most in some way, was how Mariam talked about [how] she fled one war, an actual war; and in Australia, she landed to fight a different kind of war - what she called The War of Belonging.
And when I heard that I kind of [went] oh, that was, yeah, I mean.. I think I felt so strongly because I could relate to that. But also I haven't lived through an actual war, so I also felt for her. So there were a couple of different layers. I think that got me in the guts.
Zione Yeah, absolutely.
NoèIt was beautiful the way she said that. I mean, she talks about that notion of isolation, the sense of loss. But I love that …she [also] said: no one here held the door open for her. That was such a beautiful turn of phrase. I mean what I also loved about how she talked about this was, she made an analogy about not only did she leave a war, to come to another war in the community, but she had that war internally in her body that she was fighting.
And all those varieties of analogies that she was making just shows how much courage she has. And that she brought herself into a place of starting not from anger, and not from fear, but from curiosity. And I just that, to me, was so beautiful. And so poignant. I think the way that you drew that out of her and the conversation you had with her Zione was just spectacular.
Zione Oh, that's wonderful. I mean, yeah, that description where she talked about a civil war is sort of like an autoimmune disease, right? Because there's that fighting within yourself. And then she actually was living that fight within herself here.
And I liked the mutuality, where she was talking about, you know, what she felt was her gift to the people of Brighton, or at least in her neighbourhood, was that sense of community and communal living and sharing stories and sharing food and breaking bread together. But what she got back as a gift was the ability to be your own self, like to be an individual. And, you know, when she talked about one of the greatest gifts for her was just having her own room and just shutting the door, I'm done with you. I’m done! You know?
Anna It was incredible. But it was another kind of a moment of like, oh, 9/11! Yeah - that [happened]. Like, I think, just in the public memory, like, awareness [of that], because we are just consumed by so many global crises. You know, and also, we get occupied by celebrity gossip and what have you. So I think we may have fell into an amnesia about…
Zione …how seminal a moment that was and remains for the Muslim…
Anna …and how it vibrates. It hasn't disappeared, how it affected people, just because it disappeared from our memory.
Zione Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember I was dating somebody at the time, who looked Middle Eastern - wasn't - but had that physical appearance. And we used to joke particularly in summer with the sun he’d get a tan. He was mixed race. And he said, oh, no [it was about] taking the tram, the day after, and somebody yelled out some racist abuse in relation to September 11 to him. And it took him a while to be like: hang on, sorry, what? To do the maths and say: I don't understand what's going on. And I don't understand… then he thought about his physical appearance of how this person might have made certain assumptions about him. And he was thinking, wow, I've been in this country my whole life. Nobody's actually ever poignantly said that to me. But this has happened. And imagine what it's like if that actually was my cultural heritage and context.
Noè But that legacy still continues.
Zione Absolutely.
Noè It's incredible how she's been able to turn that around into something loving and giving, and giving back. But what I also found…had so much resonance [for] is that what she's talking about is so familiar to so many of us who live in a cultural community of some sort. There's so much that's good about it. But there's so much it's so intrusive, that is the reason why people want to escape like: get out of my business already! Like, you don't need to know everything about me, get out of my face, right?
Zione and Anna [laugh]
Noè What she reminded me of was like, yeah, there's something actually beautiful about it. But if you leave it totally you will miss it. So shut your face and find the beauty of it and live with it, right?
Zione and Anna [laugh]
Noè And it's the living with it that she reminded us, she turned the mirror on that [and] goes: you know what, there is something beautiful in it. Find the way that you can live with this beautifully, find the individuality within the community. And that's where the piece - the curiosity - the alliteration, I just loved the way you laughed when you said alliteration, I love alliteration, too! Like, where she found all of that was just fantastic the coexistence, the curiosity, the courage…
Zione and Noè…the celebration!
Noè She gave you a new one at the end.
Zione Loving it, loving it.
Noè You were just like: yes, thank you. Thank you, sister. I also loved how she started, I found that really interesting. She said she had never been interviewed by a sister before.
Zione I know! I didn't know that. You just make these assumptions, right? That, oh you're out there and you know, you get interviewed and therefore… But when she said that it really centred the conversation because I ended up looking her in the eye, and it took my focus away from the business of the interview to: oh, wow, okay! You've never had this experience before? That's interesting. So how can I honour this exchange? So that it's not just transactional, and it's actually something meaningful?
NoèAnd what does that say? What is…like, how has that happened? In all of her life, in a public persona and the public engagement, that that hasn't happened.
Zione I think we haven't given enough sisters opportunities to have the authority to interview people, right?
Noè Interesting.
Zione That's how I read it.
Noè Yeah, right. I mean, it's just an incredible thing that she had this opportunity to be interviewed by you on what she's doing. I just think that must have been, for her an interesting moment as well. I just thought that was also a really beautiful moment, that the way that that opened up.
Zione Yeah, definitely. Totally unexpected.
Anna Of people like us, talking to …
Zione Us!
Anna Us! Yeah, exactly.
Zione That, in essence, is exactly what she was saying. That’s the point.
There was another thing she mentioned about cultural currency, I think taps into what you were saying, right? That idea that you come with culture, and your culture has a currency that you can utilise. Not necessarily mine in this very extractive, exploitative way, but to find the value in it, and have that be an anchor and a bedrock for you.
Noè She mentioned this thing that I loved, which was, she said, and I might be misquoting her, but I wrote it downl Life is just life, and you have to imbue value into it. And I just loved that, like life will just exist and go on. And it's up to you to make it worthwhile.
Zione And like you infuse the meaning in it, right?
Noè And then I thought to myself: you know what, that's the joy and that's the courage to actually take life and create the meaning, create the journey. And make something good of it. And dare I bring up Bridgerton and again, waiting for the next season?
Zione Oh my goodness.
Noè We can do that [sit and wait for Bridgerton]. Or in the meantime, while we're waiting, we can do something incredible and meaningful with it [ife] and make it count. Make this count. Rather than feeling sorry for yourself and saying: why is no one helping me? Why is no one understanding me? Why is no one opening the doors? I can go, you can go: here's my garden- come and eat with me. Oh, it's beautiful.
Zione And the generosity has been phenomenal. I know she's had architects and all kinds of people just jump in and say: I can do your landscaping, I can do this. I mean, it's so magical to go there. And when you think about it, it literally is a domestic backyard, right? But it's the community that's actually built it and planted all kinds of things. And, you know, there are trees that have stories attached to them, because a person was trying to heal from something. I mean, it's a very, very powerful place to go to.
Noè Incredible.
Anna So that was another message I took away from the interview, which was something that Mariam and the community sort of suffered as a result of 9/11 and all that was around it. But what she managed to transform was actually about the bigger community. It was about all of us. And how that neighbourliness and the trust in each other and, you know, that healing and that openness and that human interaction on a, you know, at a local level, like around a garden. We've probably felt a bit starved. Somehow, someone like Mariam with her experiences, kind of transformed that and we all benefit as a result - that really stood out to me.
Zione That's fantastic. Thank you so much. I am really really glad that you both enjoyed that interview and got so much resonance in connection with Maiyam and looking forward to many many more opportunities. In fact, you know what, I think next time we go to her garden because she actually does have a bit of space and we can have a conversation and food.
Noè That's a date!
Anna Maybe that conversation will get to the certain gentleman that Zione dated, because we’re not going to gloss over that.
Zione [laughs]
Noè Thanks guys.
Zione Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Like Us and SBS Audio Podcast. You can find more episodes at sbs .com .au /likeus and follow us in the SBS Audio app or wherever you get your podcast. Your hosts are me, Noè Harsel, Anna Yeon, Zione Walker-Nthenda. We are produced and engineered by Michael Burrows at Tomato Studios with support from the podcast team at SBS Audio.
