In this episode of Like Us, Anna Yeon, Noè Harsel and Zione Walker-Nthenda discuss how it feels being the only 'blank' in the village.
It can feel dismissive to your own sense of professionalism to be considered as a token representative, and it also creates unfair, unrealistic and unnecessary workplace anxieties.
A million and one people have been placed in this role without these qualifications and nobody questioned the fact that they were there.Zione Walker-Nthenda
The issue of tokenism extends to the awkward and sometimes less than flattering awareness of how other members of underrepresented groups are perceived in the same space.
So you’re a minority and somebody else who is also a minority, their behaviour all of a sudden reflects on you. And it shouldn’t!Zione Walker-Nthenda
Transcript
Noè: We would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are broadcasting from, the Boonwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, we pay our respects to their Elders past and present. We would also like to acknowledge all Traditional Owners from all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander lands you are listening from.
What do you get when a Japanese-Jewish woman, a Korean woman and a Nigerian-Malawian woman get together to chat about living, working and raising families in Australia? You get ‘Like Us’, a podcast that is Anna Song, Noè Harsel and Zione Walker-Nthenda — 3 Australian women from different cultural backgrounds, discussing their personal relationship with Australia and Australia’s relationship with them.
Noè: Hello, everyone!
Anna and Zione: Hi!!
Noè: Friends, friends, friends!
Anna and Zione: [laugh]
Zione: We’re going to have to eventually explain why we have that ‘friends friends friends’ reference…
Anna: At my expense, but that is okay…
Noè: Oh Anna, I would never do anything at your expense, no it was just because one day I called us ‘family’ and Anna wasn’t so keen on us being known as a family.
Zione: Mainly because she compared it to the work reference, where you have a boss or a manager say ‘our family’ at work. And I’m like this is totally different from that and we’re different people to those people…
Noè: Well, she just… I was a bit offended she didn’t consider us a family…
Zione: I know… [being family] felt very natural to me.
Anna: Let me find a time machine, hop on it…
Noè: I felt a bit sad…
Anna: …head back to the past where I don’t say that…[laughs]
Zione: So, so, can I say that you are now comfortable with us being referred to as a family; at least for the purpose of the podcast - our podcast family!
Anna: Meh…
Noè: Oh, did you look at that face , did you see that face!
Zione: That’s alright - we get it - we’re just friends!
Noè: Friends! And I mean… are we, are we friends?
Noè and Zione: Colleagues, colleagues.
Noè: I think she made the reference, you know, ‘work family’, no we are just ‘colleagues’…
Anna: Friends! Friends!
Noè and Zione: Friends! Comrades!
Zione: Comrades, even!
Noè: Comrades, welcome. Great to see you. Great to see you sister, Zione and comrade Anna!
Anna: [laughs] Let’s get into it, what are we talking about today?
Noè: Ok, so this one I was sort of thinking, it was spurred on, again, and please note, this is not all I do - I don’t just watch trashy tv - but there has been a bit of this in my life lately…
Anna: We will still love you.
Noè: Haha, thank you -
Zione: Because that’s what families do.
Anna: Ohhh….
Noè: I don’t know if either of you fabulous people - probably too smart to do this - either of you watched The Sex in the City reboot: And just like that.
Zione: Yes, I did!!
Noè: Oh, thank you. Anna is spectacularly quiet. She would never have done this. Never stoop so low…
Zione: Never stoop so low, no…
Noè: So And just like that is the Sex in the City reboot - and you probably don’t even know what Sex in the City is…
Anna: I do know. But I did have to ask my good friend , like, what is And just like that. And she had to explain it to me.
Noè: Tell me what the explanation is. What your friend told you what the explanation was…
Anna: Like, it’s Sex in the City like, when they are older. And instead of Samantha they have like a politically- appropriate- woman- of- colour- friend.
Noè: Fabulous! Ok that’s perfect for what I want to talk about today. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Couldn’t have planned that response. Because I didn’t even ask you before. I didn’t know that was going to happen. That’s so perfect.
Zione: Exactly.
Noè: Because what spurred this - what I want to talk about today - on, is that there is a specific episode - (and you’ll know this Zione) where Charlotte has been invited to a dinner party and she’s really super concerned because all her friends are white; and she’s super concerned that she’s going to be invited to an African American friend’s dinner party and she’s like ‘Oh my gosh’ I have no black friends what am I going to do. So she starts frantically trying to find some.
Zione: [laugh]
Anna: Well, I haven’t watched it but I do know that’s not how Charlotte talks. But I get the idea.
Noè: I thought I was so Charlotte in that moment, what do you mean!
Anna and Zione: [laughs]
Noè: Anyway, this is what I want to talk about. The actual question I wanted to raise today was about token representation. And I am almost 100% certain that - each of us - in this room has been the token ‘blank’ in the village, at some point in time in our lives.
Zione: Yes, and the question is how does that make you feel!
Noè: Ah, ha!
Zione: So - I had this episode in one of my workplaces, where I was the manager or the leader and somebody in my team told me I was the ‘token appointment’ to that role.
Noè and Anna: Oh my god!
Zione: Now, I heard that a few times, in that same role. And the very first time that was mentioned by somebody who is actually a friend, so she wasn’t meaning to be offensive, but that was the first time anyone had used that word to describe me. Even though, I’ve always been the only the Black person in whatever role it was…
Noè: I just need to backtrack one step…
Zione: Absolutely.
Noè: How did this person who said that they were not meaning to be offensive, when you use the word “token” - automatic offence.
Zione: That’s how I perceive it too, but it’s because I know her and English is her maybe second or third language, so…
Anna: Right, so there is a nuance…
Noè: Ok..
Zione: And I know she would never want to offend me, so that’s where the grace comes from. But I still had that same response because that’s my only understanding of that term. But I let it go because look, we just started in this role, where from friends we are now in a work situation, so let me just let that slide. However, months into the role, maybe post a year into the role, somebody else in the same team also said the same thing.
Anna: Right…
Zione: Now I don’t have a history with that person, so even though I gave them grace because there is a power dynamic ie I was more senior to them in the role, I didn't want to kind of be super… maybe I thought I would be aggressive I’m not quite sure. But I let it slide, but my face couldn't hide that I was crestfallen. And so they saw it and said, oh, I didn’t mean to be offensive but I’m basically describing what I think was going on or whatever.
Anna: Ok, here’s the thing - if you’re going to be prejudiced, at least have the common sense not to say it to the person’s face. Just…inside voice, keep your prejudice ‘inside voice’!
Noè: I don't know if that’s better!
Zione and Anna: [laughs]
Noè: Keep it in until it comes out in a shot of gun fire or…
Anna: And you say a ‘shot of gunfire’ because you’re an American, hahaha!
Zione and Noè: [laughs]
Noè: Quite true, quite true.
Zione: So [it’s] problematic! So I definitely sat in this space of ‘not quite sure how to handle this’ - in both situations the impact was the same. I felt offended. I don’t care what their intentions were. This was how it left me feeling. And I thought, well am I a token appointment? So on one level there was a part of me that felt ‘I don’t care because I am qualified to be in this space’, and a million and one people have been placed in this role without these qualifications and nobody questioned the fact that they were there.
Noè: Correct!
Zione: So I am just going to ignore that and let you deal with it and process it yourself, right? But then there is the other part of me that was like, but still I don’t appreciate the fact that anybody or other people were perceiving my appointment as thus.
Noè: Umm hmm…
Zione: I don’t have an answer for it; all I am saying is that it was an uncomfortable place for me to sit in.
Noè: So this is my question - with all of these sorts of things when we get into these uncomfortable spaces: what do we do?
Anna: Ok. To partially answer your question but to partially just, for me to share this story. Because I want to…
Zione and Noè: [laughs]
Anna: So, Zione and I used to work for a kind of a similar employer, and I first met Zione - well, I remembered Zione there, I don’t know whether Zione remembers me…
Zione: Of course, I do!
Anna: So, basically, Zione’s very presence made me not ‘the only in the village’. So we became a pair of the...
Noè: ... ‘the onlys’?
Noè and Zione:[laughs]
Anna: [a pair of] ‘the onlys’... in that particular village. And it wasn’t just the colour of our skin. When Zione spoke at that meeting, I’ll tap into my inside voice back then which was like ‘THANK GOD!’
Noè: Wow…
Zione: [laughs]
Anna: Because not only did she carry that professionalism, and that seniority that you refer to, but she had this, like, amazing voice!
Noè: Yeah, she’s got an obviously - well, as we can all hear - she’s got this amazing voice!
Anna: And just, she had the polish and just like…Because it’s actually quite awkward, sometimes - ok, I am going to be very controversial - I become so used to being ‘the only in the village’ there are times I feel more comfortable being ‘the only’ if the ‘pair’ - the only other - is displaying values that are sketchy.
Noè: Right…
Anna: You know?
Noè: So that you look?
Anna: Like, there is - oh for a lack of a better expression- a tarnish somehow; of being ‘the onlys’... And it’s not associated positively but negatively, right? So if their behaviour or if it’s a workplace and their performance or their professional reputation is a negative one, and let’s say they are the only other Asian woman in a team or whatever, I would sometimes rather just be the only!
Noè: Oh I totally understand what you’re saying.
Zione: So it’s so interesting that we carry that burden, right? So you’re a minority and somebody else who is also a minority, their behaviour all of a sudden reflects on you. And it shouldn’t!
Noè: Yes, 100 percent.
Zione: They are just there representing themselves, their values, their capabilities. But that’s part of that problem.
Anna: Exactly.
Noè: That’s so true. And to carry that fear, so when you see someone else who is a minority and suddenly you are living with that fear, ‘oh my god - may she be smart!’
Anna: EXACTLY!!
Zione: But we shouldn’t have to carry that burden though!
Noè: But that’s what you were thinking…
Anna: We are dealing with enough problems already, we don’t need another one. We specifically have to carry that [burden] that is no fault of our own, but yet! I mean, I know [that] I do.
Zione: That person is entitled to be where they are at!
Noè: I mean they can be dumb if they want to be…
Anna: And I am entitled not to be associated with them, you know? But we know that’s not how prejudice works.
Noè: Correct! You're entitled to be your own incredible human, totally separate to the other person regardless of where they are at. And yet you know very well that if they are an idiot, you’re going to be both idiots, or associated as idiots…
Anna: Or someone who is prejudiced will ask me why is that person so incompetent - like I should know!
Zione: How would you know?
Noè: That’s right.
Zione: How am I responsible?
Anna: Or sometimes there is this weird, charged like competition…
Zione and Noè: Yes!
Noè: Constantly! Competition!
Anna: I actually really love that book The Other Black Girl - that picks up on that dynamic. I just love that that was talked about because, I mean, not to cliche like ‘dear white people’ kind of thing, but dear white people: it’s not all about our relationship with you, sometimes it’s our relationship with …
Zione and Noè: each other!
Anna: …and that relationship with you is secondary. And I think that book dealt with that in a way that I haven’t really read it before.
Zione: Yes, you’ve recommended it before; I’d have to read it. And I often say, because sometimes I, you know, sit in groups or boards and I am the only person of colour on that Board. And my view now is if you have a Board of 12 people, in fact less, 9 people and you want it to be a diverse Board, you need a minimum of 3. Any kind of diversity you need a minimum of 3! Because one person is…
Noè: …tokenistic.
Zione: Yup, that is how it is perceived. Two people can have that type of [competitive] energy. Three starts to normalise it a little bit, just a little bit, where people can start to feel like I can be myself. And represent myself in this space. Anything less than 3, no.
Noè: Yup, I hear that. That’s a great piece of advice.
Anna: I think that would work with not only race but other attributes of diversity.
Zione: Yeah, absolutely.
Noè: Yes, other types of diversity across the board. That’s interesting.
Zione: All of it!
Anna: That’s important to remember too, because sometimes back when I was a little bit young and foolish - or younger and more foolish - I think I wanted a sense of token diversity in my personal life to make myself feel better somehow…?
Zione: As in you were the only who could sort of scratch yourself out of the barrel and get to the top, type of thing?
Noè: Or you wanted to have a nice… range around you?
Anna: Yeah, maybe both. Maybe neither. Maybe I just wanted to feel like a cosmopolitan woman or something, I don’t know… But I remember having like a birthday when I was like 22 or 23 or something. And maybe I did this consciously or maybe it just happened to be that way, but there were about 10 friends and we went out to dinner and there really was every shade of…humanity around the table! And someone made the comment that this birthday dinner looks like the United Nations. And I remember at that age, I felt really proud of myself that…
Noè: But you know what, I still think… I don’t see anything wrong with that. Like, unless you sat there and went and oh, I’m missing a… I’m missing that shade….
Zione and Noè: [laughs]
Anna: But here is a confession: I actually don’t know whether I subconsciously think that or not…
Noè: Right.
Anna: As a university student at the cusp of adulthood, whether I made it more about the facade…
Noè: and less about the individual…
Anna: …and the quality of those friendships.
Noè: But there is something nice and pure in a way about the consciousness of wanting to have a diverse table or a diverse friendship group. Or to be conscious enough to say, I want to have a diverse group of friends. That in itself is, that there is something about that, that I still find attractive. There is something nice in that.
Anna: Speaking of attractive, completely taking that as a segway, talking about something different that I want to talk about…
Noè: Take it away, take it away…
Zione and Anna: [laughs]
Anna: I have noticed more recently, [that] if I am dating someone…
Noè: Oh yeah, ok I am interested in this.
Zione: Oh I know!
Noè: Who are you dating?
Anna: [laughs] Ok, I’m going to keep talking about what I want to talk about…
Noè: If it’s about dating, this is all so good!
Anna: If I am dating someone and they only have friends of their race…
Noè: Oh, no…[groans]
Anna: …and it doesn’t matter what race that person is: if they are a white person with only white friends, or if they are an Asian person with only Asian friends, I’m kind of like…
Noè: That’s disgusting…
Anna: I don’t think of it as disgusting…
Noè: I think you should though.
Anna and Zione: [laughs]
Anna: But I just feel, I just feel uncomfortable. Especially in a country like Australia…
Zione: …where you have so many different people you could be friends with…
Anna: …and how is it possible that you went through school, and work and just life?
Noè: I guess it depends on their age though, as well.
Zione: So these are people that are within her dating range.
Noè: But we don’t know what that is.
Zione: Oh, that is true! But considering she is already prejudiced against us [our age]....
Anna: I’ll leave it to your imagination. [laughs]
Noè: I’m just a bit curious because if she is going for the older, older…
Anna: Ok, can we focus.
Noè: Ok, then let’s talk about when you and I met, Anna because I remember when you and I met - we were at a party and I know we’ve spoken about this before, but what was really fun was someone came up to me and said oh my god, there is another Asian here!
Zione: Oh my god, cringe…
Anna: But you know what, the same thing happened when I met Noè to what I met Zione for the first time. Which is, you were like a super, great ‘the other’ to have in the village. You know?
Zione and Noè: [laughs]
Zione: As in ‘endorsed by Anna’!
Anna: Exactly [laughs].
Noè: I got the ‘Anna tick’ - I’m flicking my hair back.
Zione: Absolutely.
Anna: I invisibly gave both of you like ‘endorsed by Anna Song stamps’, sitting there like as if I have that authority.
Noè: It’s very weird like, I did have that moment where I was almost like…
Anna: [laughs]
Zione: What? What do you mean?
Anna: Is she going to be a ‘good Asian’ or a ‘bad Asian’?
Noè: But I mean, do I want to meet ‘the other Asian’ in the village?
Anna: I actually do use the phrase ‘solid Asian’ in a workplace. Like when I meet another Asian person and I really like them as a human being and they are great at their job, and it’s all good, I say I’m so glad you’re a ‘solid Asian’. I actually say that.
Noè: [laughs]
Zione: But what does that mean? Solid? Does that mean in a sense of you’re down with your culture and all of that stuff? Or solid as in, I filtered you through a Western lens and you’re acceptable…
Anna and Noè: Ohhh….Wow…
Zione: Sorry sorry, I’m going there. And you’re acceptable in this society so therefore you’re acceptable to me.
Noè: Oh, I like this. What was I?
Anna: That was deep.
Noè: What was I? What was I, Anna?
Zione and Anna: [laughs]
Noè: Tell me to my face! What was I?
Zione: Ohhh… I’m going to make a slow exit…[laughs]
Noè: Is this why I’m not family?
Zione, Anna, Noè: [laughs]
Anna: I’ll look at you straight in the eye, Noè Harsel and say: you are all kinds of ‘solid Asian’ to me!
Zione: Oh, a perfect answer. A perfect answer.
Anna and Noè: [laughs]
Noè: You got a way with that. You got a way with that. That’s pretty lucky actually.
Anna: It is. And while I’m on top, I’m going to say we wrap up!
Noè: I think you’re taking a nice smooth and safe exit…
Zione: Very safe exit.
Noè: Very well done, Ms Anna Song! Well, here’s to not being the ‘only-whatevers’ in the village!
Zione: I know. More of us - minimum 3!
Anna: Minimum 3 and here we are.
Zione and Noè: Oh yeah, minimum 3!
Noè: Yes - just like us!
Zione: Perfect!
Anna: Bom, bom!
Close: Thanks for listening to Like Us, a new podcast Brought to you by SBS. You’ll find more episodes of Like Us on the SBS website: . You can also subscribe to Like Us from the SBS radio app, apple or google podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Your hosts are Noe Harsel, Anna Song and Zione Walker-Nthenda. We are produced and engineered by Michael Burrows at Brand Music and would also like to thank everyone at SBS radio, especially Caroline Gates for their help and support.
